Welcome to “The New York Times Popcast,” your swollen knuckles of weekly culture chat. I’m Jon Caramanica, and I’m the critic. I’m Joe Coscarelli. I am the reporter.
It’s “Iceman” weekend, which is to say, it’s bigger than “Iceman.” It’s bigger than just a weekend. We’re here for the next 90 minutes talking about everything Drake that’s happened in the last 48 hours. We’re talking “Iceman,” we’re talking “Maid of Honour,” we’re talking “Habibti,” we’re talking conspiracy theories about multinational corporations, talking legal battles, we’re talking what happens when your friends stop liking you.
Fake friends.
They were never your friends to start with. We have a lot of touchpoints to go off of. Joe, at the top, should we very simply say — 1, 2, 3. we got three albums that we’re reckoning with. Should we just get it out of the way? I don’t want to bury the lead. I’m also going to go live — we’re gonna go live on Instagram as well.
Yeah, we’re going live on every platform. Check us out where you find us.
Yes. Phenomenal. So we’re going to start ranking Drake albums. Do you want to go first?
All time Drake albums?
No! Drake albums that have been released in the last 48 hours. Yes.
The anticipation, the topical bars. It’s “Iceman.” “Iceman” is the project still I think “Iceman” thing. It’s the lead. It’s the album. The two surprises that came alongside it are a lot of things, artistic flex, a business flex, a genre flex.
But “Iceman” to me is the main event here. And that came through in the music. I think that’s where the effort is. That’s where the headlines are. That’s where some of the most interesting choices are. And then you get to “Maid of Honour,” and you’re like, oh, no, no, wait a second, this is where the real experimenting is happening.
So to me, it’s those two as a companion piece. And then ”“Habibti” is like a nice little EP on the side. Some cool stuff on there. We’ll get there. We’re going to talk about each album individually. We’re also going to be taking questions at the end. Please hit us in the YouTube chat.
That’s right.
Anything you want to know about our opinions on these three Drake albums, where he’s come from, where he’s going. Yeah. To me, I think this is probably predictable. “Iceman,” “Maid of Honour,” “Habibti.”
But I could see an argument. And I think a lot of people in time are going to be making the case that “Maid of Honour” is the important album of the three, that “Iceman” is like a throat clear.
Yeah, “Iceman” to me — so look, on a basic level, I think you’re ranking — I agree with the ranking. I could quibble a little bit about 2 versus 3. But I think that “Iceman,” in terms of quality, consideration, philosophical importance has to come first.
But I agree with you. “Maid of Honour” feels to me like a release valve. It feels to me like a forward looking direction. It feels to me like Drake saying, all right, I’m done with you guys, I’m actually going to go make something innovative, something novel, something that frankly, most of my purported enemies couldn’t do, or wouldn’t want to do.
And wouldn’t even think to try to do. And I think that that’s ultimately the wrapping flex of “Iceman.” That’s where most of the addressing of the Kendrick Lamar beef happened, the whatever’s happening with UMG, Universal Music Group, his label, Lucian Grainge, Jay-Z, LeBron James, Damar DeRozan, all of the hot topics are in “Iceman.” But I think you’re right that ultimately, the real stunting is the fact that he can not only do “Maid of Honour,” but do both simultaneously.
Yeah. I mean, Drake, you can debate whether or not he’s been away for the last 2 and 1/2 years. Obviously, we’re sort of living still in the long shadow of the Drake Kendrick beef. There have been moments where he’s popped up, put out records, record with PARTYNEXTDOOR, “Nokia,” really, really big single.
There are things where you have these moments of like, OK, this is the beginning of the Drake re-emergence. But then they never quite took hold. They never quite blossomed into something large. This rollout, from the rollout itself, all the way to the release of the albums, felt like everybody had done their breathing exercises. “Popcast” are very big on breathing exercises.
We’re learning.
Everybody had done their breathing exercises and said, OK, there’s no need to be fast about this. There’s no need to be hasty. There’s no need to be thoughtless about it. What’s the best version of a Drake re-emergence?
And it turns out the best version of Drake re-emergence is, on the one hand, bars. On the other hand, utterly dismissive of everybody who left you hanging along the way. On the third hand, musical innovation. On the fourth hand, bulk, right?
It’s bulk. It’s just, oh, I was away for a while, here’s, what is it, 45 songs. Yeah, 45 songs. You boys can never.
What my main takeaway from, OK, it’s Thursday night, leading up to midnight. You start to hear rumors, leaks. Drake’s going to put out this many songs. You always knew probably that he wasn’t going to come super concise. There’s always this wish, oh, someday, Drake will put out that perfect 10 to 12 song album. That’s never what he’s done.
We’ve been asking that of Taylor for a long time, too.
That’s just not what these artists do. And I think as we got to midnight, and I saw, yes, in fact, Drake is putting out three albums simultaneously, it was like, of course, he is. And then you listen to them. And what I think is really happening here, big picture, is that Drake is reminding people why they loved him. And he’s doing that in form, he’s doing that in content, and he’s doing it over and over and over again.
I think if you go all the way back to May 2024, “Not Like Us” happened.
Were we ever so young.
That weekend of back and forth. One of the things that was so exciting about that is that Drake got Kendrick to move at his pace. And if anything, Kendrick one-upped him at the Drake move, which is always having something in the chamber, coming back, coming back, coming back, recording quickly, which is always the thing that Drake had over everyone else.
In the aftermath of that, what was the first thing Drake did after the beef? He opened up his archives. He puts out 100 gigs. He says, oh, remember when I recorded this song, here’s a little peek behind the scenes. Oh, remember when I recorded that music video that you love. Get nostalgic for me.
Remember what I’ve meant to you. Remember what I’ve meant to your life. Remember how I’ve soundtracked this moment and that moment. And I was this guy, and then I was that guy, and you were with me all along the way. What he was also doing in that time was putting out more new music. He was immediately putting out a lot of music.
But there’s a way that Drake puts out music. We’ve been trained over the years to understand that there are levels of Drake releases. Not everything is the alpha release. Not everything is the hero release. Drake will put out an EP of demos. Drake — obviously, a lot of the earliest stuff, they were SoundCloud links and stuff like that.
I think the audience is trained to know what’s a minor Drake release and what’s a major Drake release. And it’s interesting that up against this sort of the 100 gigs and nostalgia moment, those felt like minor releases. And I think in the moment, it wasn’t totally clear. I think if you read those as major releases, you’d be like, oh, whoops —
It’s over for him.
Yeah, yeah. We’re looking at he’s putting out his own box set, basically. But that’s not what was going on. It was effluvia, as it were. A little bit of memory, a little bit of light stuff. Here are a few bars you might like. Here’s some production that’s interesting. But there was no firm stamp and said, this is a new direction for Drake.
And I think in the wake of 2024, the macro question is, does he need a new direction. Can he pick up exactly where he left off, or does he need to hard pivot?
And I think what he’s doing here is yes and. It’s both. He immediately signals, even while he’s sort of chumming the water with single here, EP here, joint mixtape there —
PARTYNEXTDOOR tape, Yeah.
— he’s saying “Iceman” is going to be the thing. He starts teasing it on Finsta. He has the plot twist account. You start getting hints. He’s basically making an online zine.
Just as a sidebar, last night, I finally came up with what my Finsta name will be.
You’re gonna share it now?
No, I’m not going to share it. No, it wouldn’t be offensive if I shared it now.
But when there’s an account and it has 1 following, followed by Jon Caramanica, and it’s a clever name, that’s your Finsta. Yeah.
Just putting that out there.
We’ll keep eyes peeled.
Teasing.
And so he sort of sets “Iceman” up on this pedestal as he’s done many times before. Remember, “Views” was like this, where he was teasing it for years and years and years and years. And the anticipation builds. And because he started teasing these with the YouTube Livestreams more than a year ago, you’re like, OK, there’s no way it can live up to the hype.
But I think what he did to soften that was be like, here are these other things that I’m good at, and they’re going to come at the same time. And if you’re not getting what you want out of the main course, here are two other paths you can take with me.
So why don’t we talk about the macro conceits of the three albums? We’ll get in more detail later on in terms of song by song. The macro conceit — “Iceman” is the vengeance album. You guys have torn my heart out. I have nothing pulsing through my veins, but pure vitriol for you. Everything you’ve done, everything you’ve done to let me down, you’ve attacked me.
Anybody who was ever notionally on Drake’s side and either said nothing or said, I’m actually on the other side, Drake’s got something for you here. He’s got a bar for you hiding in here.
Unless you’re future, in which case he has a verse open for you.
And the smartest person coming out of the beef, looking great.
Team everyone? Team no one.
No, team success. First of all, if there’s one team that we’re on, it’s team success.
Team business.
Yeah, yeah. So we’re on team success.
It’s all business.
So “Iceman” is the album that I think people wanted from Drake 18 months ago.
Sure.
I think people thought that he could load this up very quickly. And I don’t know the origin story of all these songs. Maybe a bunch of it was loaded 18 months ago. But I think the expectation was he would come with something like this right on the back of the beef.
Now, in retrospect, it seems wise to have not done that because then all of a sudden, he puts out an album. It’s going to be post GNX. And then he’s going to put out this album. And then Kendrick’s going to put something else out. And then all of a sudden, you have an entire three year period that’s only ping ponging back and forth beef records. It’s actually quite interesting to wait for the whole thing to subside and then drop all these howitzers, as it were.
I don’t think “Iceman” is only revenge, though, because I also think it’s bait. He’s also doing this thing throughout — and we’ll get into the specifics of that. But he’s basically saying, I still have more. I still have more to say. I still have more to reveal. I’m going to out you, whoever you think you are. I’m still the boogeyman and this isn’t over.
But it does feel like he’s waiting to see, is Kendrick going to come back at him, is Jay-Z going to come back at him, is Universal Music going to come back at him, let alone Rick Ross, A$AP Rocky, LeBron James, DeMar DeRozan — do I have to name all the rest of —
Anyone who popped out.
Yeah anyone, except Kawhi Leonard who was at the pop out —
And gets a bar.
— but is treated here as an ally because he won a championship for the Toronto Raptors while keeping his mouth shut, which is one of the things he’s best at. But I do think it’s a clever term to use “Iceman” as both score settling and potentially the first quarter of a whole new game should those —
Should everybody rise to the bait.
Do you think what he says here about the beef and about Kendrick in particular, the “1AM in Albany,” which is titled differently on this album, is basically another diss song? Is does this change the conversation around the beef? Or does it need to?
I don’t think it changes the conversation around the beef, but I think the fact that Drake sat on this for a really long time — if Drake had re-emerged this weekend with an album of R&B party jams — which we’ll get to.
What if he did?
Yes. But if he had emerged solely with an album, people would have said, he conceded. There’s no concession. There’s very little concession. The only concession on these three albums is that they took 2 and 1/2 years. To me —
There’s some sadness in there.
There’s sadness and reflection.
There’s some like it hurts to lose.
But I think for every line about I don’t feel like I’m in the greatest place, I feel like there’s five lines about you boys messed up.
Yeah, and/or whoever was keeping score kept score wrong.
Yes. And so to me, the fact that he comes back essentially pitched at 80 to 90 percent of the intensity of what was happening two years ago and is doing it two years later — I mean, I feel like the guy is seething. And that’s — yes, absolutely. I feel like that comes through.
And to your point about is this bait for people to come in, he is welcoming it. Even like you see it in the rollout, teasing the — everybody asking Rick Ross, who had his own weird why was it Rick Ross on every single show last week. Serious question — did he have a thing coming out?
As Drake said, how many interviews are you guys going to do to try to get me to chill?
Also, he said, I was Aidan Ross with streams before Aidan Ross was streaming. I mean, what? Literally, what? I played that so many times. I couldn’t — anyway, very special line. The point is he’s at 80 to 90 percent of where he was two years ago. And maybe it took two years to be able to deliver that with convincing confidence because there are moments that are like, I kind of don’t know, it’s been tough.
Now to do that, he also did the other thing which I just mentioned, which was like, OK, guys wanted me to dance, I’ll dance.
You like Drake with the melodies? Here’s two hours of melodies.
Yeah. So you listen to “Maid of Honour.” And I feel like when I was thinking about Drake post “Honestly, Nevermind,” pre Kendrick post “Honestly, Nevermind,” there is this sense that he could be a global placeless pop star. He can be making hits that connect in Switzerland and connect in Canada and America, but also Mexico and Japan and Korea.
Obviously, Drake’s very popular. I’m sure he has hits that are successful in all these territories. But I think that there was an idea that he could do something almost grander with the music and maybe remove some of the American specificity — Greatest American living songwriter list, TBD — removing some of the American specificity from the music, and just basically be like, what I do is I make —
Or the Canadian specificity. North American’s specificity.
But kind of like will he just do Zara Larsson collapse for the next five years and make zillions of dollars. And the answer is maybe “Maid of Honour” is a music of eccentric and weird and very peculiar dance music, but done at a very high level. Unusual flows, strange production choices. It’s invigorating to hear Drake innovate in this way. It’s really striking.
To me, it’s an album —
It’s not something. It’s not something any of the people he’s coming for or coming for him can do. Literally, not a single person could do this album besides him.
And I think that that’s the statement that he’s making. Yeah, when I heard “Maid of Honour,” initially, I was like, OK, it’s blooming where “Honestly, Nevermind’s” house influence kept it pretty level. This is exploding way outward. It’s like “Nokia” meets “Honestly, Nevermind,” taking in all of the previous international pop and dance experiments that Drake had done in his career.
And then there are a few moments across all three of these albums where he’s really, really, really going left field. I want to talk about some of the guitars on here eventually.
Some real weirdo stuff. “Rusty Intro.”
“Rusty Intro,” we will get to. But this “Maid of Honour” feels like it can have the longest tail. “Iceman,” to me, feels —
Time specific.
Yes. Feels time specific. At the same time, is “Iceman” one of the most successful standalone Drake albums because of its sonic focus?
Yes. Yes, the conceit is tight. And it’s funny because one of the things that mid to late career Drake, if we can talk about that, kind of gets dinged for is like, oh, my gosh, these albums, 33 songs, how could you. This solves this problem, number one, in a very literal, logistical way, which is to say, it’s not 33 songs, it’s three albums of 16 and 14 and 11, or whatever it is. So it’s like, don’t be mad at me. Just listen the one you like.
Yeah, pick and choose.
Yeah. So it’s bloat. But also, I think, from a focus perspective, the idea that we have three themed — I think I said to you in the car on the way in. He went Shania Twain on them. He’s just like, I’m going to have different sonic ideas. I’m going to express myself in different ways on different albums.
I agree that the focus thematically on “Iceman” is really strong. It does make for a really strong album. We’ll get more into detail on “Iceman.” But I think if “Iceman” doesn’t quite have the legs of “Maid of Honour,” I don’t know if it’s for that reason. I think, actually, it’s because it’s extremely writerly it’s a very —
So many words.
It’s a very written album listening to “Iceman,” I just kept thinking, I actually don’t know at this point if Drake is writing.
I mean, he says in the thing. He’s like, I’m so sure of these words, I’m not using a pencil. He’s like, I’m writing this in pen.
Yes. But I don’t the degree to which it’s in a notes app or in a pen or — I don’t know that. But what I do is that these are written lines. And I imagine —
They’ve been workshopped.
Yeah, I sort of imagine the Notes app, if there is a Notes app, where it’s like best possible line about Jay-Z, best possible line about Galette, best possible line about Rocky, literally cross better, cross out better, cross out better, until you end up with a I take 500k over the dinner any day, or whatever. That, to me, is, if it’s going to not be an album for all time, which is, say, radio hits and so on and so forth —
There’s a couple of those.
Of course. No, no, I mean, this is an excellent record. But to me, if it goes in that direction, what I think it’s going to do by going in that direction is by saying, I’m really here to address a moment. “Maid of Honour,” to me is the one where you could mess around and have four radio singles that carry us through the whole summer. I don’t think “Iceman” is designed for that. Doesn’t make it lesser of an album, but it might make it a tiny bit more time specific.
It’s interesting to me the real parallels for those two albums. And “Habibti” also, I think, has a comp in that way. But they’re not the canon Drake albums. They’re the mixtapes. To me, “Iceman” is, if you’re reading this, it’s the most focused that I’ve felt in a Drake listen since the surprise release of “If You’re Reading This, It’s Too Late,” which had that mixtape cohesion and that chip on the shoulder rapping where that was in a moment where Drake had become a big pop star.
And then he said, here’s me at my toughest. That was the birth of Mafioso Drake, essentially.
Evil Drake.
Villain Drake. And “Maid of Honour” is more life in the sense of let me take the broadest possible palette —
Influences from a bunch of different places.
— underground producers, sounds, guests. I do think it’s very notable that throughout all three of these albums, Drake is doing, again, reminding us what we’ve loved most about him. He’s playing talent scout. Outside of Future and Sexyy Red, though she’s on the bubble, and 21 Savage, who has one line repeated over and over again, no verse, every other guest and a large number of the producers on here are up and coming or underground. And that is something that Drake has, again, always, I think, prided himself on.
And when you saw what Kendrick was doing on GNX by putting on a couple smaller guys, I think Drake took that as a challenge to be like, no, no, I’m the A&R of our time. I have the eye.
Although, was that ever in dispute?
No, but I think —
If anything, I felt like Kendrick was pulling a Drake on GNX.
Sure. But he tripled down on it here. And he makes the joke in the intro of “Iceman,” where he’s like, this album better have some big features. And in fact, what he did was go even more specific on the features across the three albums. So to me, “Maid of Honour” is most similar to more life, and then “Habibti” is “Some Sexy Songs 4 U.” It’s in that mode with a few novel twists.
“Some Sexy Songs 4 U” is underrated. It’s underrated and it had legs. For being in Drake’s wilderness phase, it really, I feel like, had —
It did had legs. I don’t think that’s —
And not even as many legs as it should have had. “Die Trying,” deserved better. “Die Trying,” deserved better. That’s a pop smash.
It’s funny because I think of “Habibti” as the demo. It’s the demo’s record. But when I was listening to everything again this morning before we came in, I almost could see a case for it as a standalone. I don’t that “Habibti —” if “Iceman” and “Maid of Honour” didn’t exist, I don’t think “Habibti” would be put out in this form. I think it only exists as a companion piece.
But the more I listen to it, there are some unusual choices here. And it could be in the category of eccentric Drake albums. It’s not the sonic innovation home that “Maid of Honour” is. But could this have been a kind of strange tossed off EP four years ago pre-beef, and everybody would have loved it? Yeah. I think, if anything, “Habibti’s” going to get underappreciated just simply because “Iceman” is so thematically strong and “Maid of Honour” so musically strong.
But there are five or six great songs on habit. So I don’t know. I think three or four years ago, we’ll be sitting here and being like, damn, people really didn’t pay attention. It was too much music. They didn’t catch everything that was happening.
Before get into the specifics on each of these albums, I want to talk a little bit about the delivery of them and what it means for the bigger picture of Drake’s career in a business sense. I think as soon as he heard Drake was dropping three albums late on Thursday night, people immediately made the Frank Ocean comparison. They were like, oh, is “Iceman” to fulfill the contract, and then the other two are going to be independent. Nope. They drop. They are OVO, licensed to Republic, a subsidiary of Universal Music.
Just like all of them.
Just like the last many Drake albums. Drake, of course, still in active litigation against his own major label. I think there’s a few lines throughout this album where he tries to make clear, I’m not suing a rapper over losing a beef. He’s not suing Kendrick Lamar. I’m suing the man. I’m suing Universal Music.
His allegations again were that they backed Kendrick perhaps using —
Bots.
— bots. Perhaps artificially inflating the numbers in order to devalue Drake ahead of a contract renewal, while also trying to boost their promotion of Kendrick Lamar, also in line with a contract negotiation with him. So that was the case was thrown out by a judge. Drake is currently in the midst of appealing that.
Surprisingly few direct shots at Lucian Grainge on this album, which we talked about —
This is very much — it’s peppered on this album, but there’s no definitive statement. There’s a lot of let me out of my deal, I want to be free. If everything goes according to my plans, I’m going to change the game. This is going to be my revolution. There’s a lot of hints toward that. I’m looking for billions —
B’s on the table.
Billions on the table. There’s a lot of that. So the three albums come out. It wasn’t a Frank Ocean “Blonde” “Endless” situation where one was to get out of the deal, one or two were independent. Then the theory becomes — and this was reported a little bit in the industry press — oh, maybe Drake had three more albums on his Universal deal, and this fulfills that.
You chase this down a little bit.
I made some calls this weekend. I talked to people on both sides. The answers that I’m getting are it’s complicated. The lawsuit is ongoing. Nothing definitive. It’s not Drake is percent free and, on Monday, he’s going to put out something under Drake Inc, as funded by some private equity firm.
What’s the Taylor Swift — Taylor Swift Rights Management? TSRM?
Sure.
Sure. [CHUCKLES]
I think it is a fluid situation. I think these contracts probably have a lot of clauses about what happens even after a deal is fulfilled, I think, because they are in active litigation. Again, there’s an appeal that could happen. That’s probably going to have some say in how this all goes.
Leads me to the question, do you think of releasing three albums primarily as a business move or primarily as a creative move, or are they not mutually exclusive.
I mean, they’re definitely not mutually exclusive, but it feels like a strategic move in terms of the macro narrative followed by a business move, but could only be executed in a creative framework by this person. That’s really how it feels like. When you go back to the Frank moment, yes, I can talk — or I did, at some point in my life, talk about how different “Blonde” and “Endless” were.
In the macro sense, when you look back, they were very much speaking a similar language. It’s totally fine. We can quibble the details.
It wasn’t like he made a country album and a nu metal album.
Exactly. Although, someday.
Frank or Drake.
Well, I was just going to say, if one person could do both of those things — and maybe Drake has at least one track that kind of hints at both of those directions on these albums. But I imagine putting three albums out gets him to the table of a renegotiation faster.
It also solves the strategic problem we were talking about, which is I’ve been away for 2, 2 and 1/2 years, not totally, but how do I assert myself, how I come back in the loudest possible way. Then it’s creativity. It’s like, I’m not going to give you three albums of the same thing. I actually have the capacity of giving three separate kinds of albums. So I think it’s in that order. But it only exists this way because he can do all of them at once.
You want to dive into the albums?
Boy, do I. Yeah, boy, do I.
Let’s go.
“Iceman.” You want to just start right with “Make Them Cry?”
Yeah. I mean, that’s the intro. That’s like three songs in one, as many Drake intros are. It’s currently projected to go number one on Billboard I think largely because it’s the first track on the most anticipated album.
Of course. But what’s funny to me is, even though it’s the first track on the first of these three albums, its very big last track energy. It’s extremely big last track energy, which I think is not — it’s not an accident. I mean, it’s a hit in the sense that it’s being streamed a lot, but it’s not a hit in the sense of a radio record.
It’s pointed that he’s putting a melancholic self-lacerating, but still kind of coming for folks rumination first on the comeback album. That’s meaningful.
I think you’re right. And I think when we look back on these three albums and “Iceman” in particular, I think what we’re going to see is that Drake at least tried to do everything that was asked of him. And he’s addressing each of the millions of criticisms that he’s gotten in the past two years, and that even predated the Kendrick beef.
I think one of the things that Kendrick beef did was it accounted for all of the ambient Drake hate and fatigue that had been gathering, that had been —
Gave it a road. Gave it a pass.
And it put it all in a hit, put it all in a hit song, which was very, very potent. But as I always like to say, all cancelations are cumulative. And Drake losing this beef, I think, was also cumulative. When we sat in these chairs, or maybe the old chairs, and I said, people had Drake derangement syndrome in that it couldn’t only be that Drake’s music wasn’t for them anymore, but it had to be that he was the worst person on Earth, that was —
And that he was vanquished and worth vanquishing, which is ridiculous.
That was when “For All the Dogs” came out. That was way pre big three, pre Kendrick beef, pre “Like That.” We were already feeling that, and were ready for that. And I think one of the things he tries to do right away on “Make Them Cry” is to be like, I sat with myself, and I tried to get deeper. And I think the way he does that here is by invoking 40.
40 is his long time right hand, his main creative partner. You and I have always said they’re a band, Drake and 40.
Yep.
40, depending on how closely you’re parsing the credits and following the fan tea leaves, maybe took some space in all of this from Drake, was less involved in everything that was coming out. We haven’t seen the credits for these albums yet. They’re still in the works, I think. Somebody send me the credits if you have them. I’ll check my email.
A great time to send those credits.
40 is all over this album. You can hear it. But there’s specifically, in here, he says, “I feel like 40 won’t even listen to my words when he knows I’m in a load of trouble. I’m in the cut. Just loading rebuttals. He says, show me your muscles.” And specifically, he says, “They know you’re thorough with the bread, but there’s some shit you got to pony up to.”
And he repeats that later in the album where he’s basically like, I know you guys are sick of hearing how rich I am. I need to dig a little deeper. And he’s putting that criticism not in the mouth of the peanut gallery, but in the mouth of the person who he trusts the most.
Yeah, the person without whom there is no Drake. I mean, the thing, if you go back to early “Prodigal Son,” 2008, 2009, the invention of Drake as a character and as a person, there’s two people. You have 40 and you have Oliver. And also, very soon, Future the Prince.
There is no Drake character to the extent that we’re talking about Drake, the superstar as a character, without 40, because what 40 has done is every time Drake was out here puffing his chest, 40 gave him these layers of thoughtful melancholy. Anytime Drake went melodic, 40 could buffet it with a little bit of toughness. Anytime Drake went tough, 40 would restrain it with a touch of melody.
That’s the person who is the bat. That’s the checks and balances of Drake. And right, on the first track here, he’s basically being like, the guy who I rely on, I don’t even know if this person wants — he’s tired of it. He doesn’t want to deal with it. I wonder, on some level — we talk about the time gap between the actual beef and this. I wonder, on some level, if it’s 40 saying, not now.
Take a break.
Not now.
Or like, go put out your little R&B, your party records. We’ll dance —
Go to Turks, go to Turks. Hang out.
Take some time off.
Yeah, have a great time. No, but put a life vest on. Get in the water. Buy some Chrome. Shoutout Vincent. Buy some Chrome. Have a great time. I wonder if that’s part of what’s happening here.
I mean, obviously, we’re not privy to the behind the scenes conversations. But I do imagine there’s only so many people at this specific moment in history who can look Drake in the eye and say, I know you want to do A, really not A.
Yeah. I actually find his wrestling on this album between I’m taking constructive feedback and I’m enacting it, and you actually don’t what you’re talking about to be quite moving and realistic. It feels like he has both sat with this, but also is continuing to wrestle with it. There’s also the line here after the 40 stuff. He says, “What died back in 2024 was a big piece. So this is me, but it isn’t me.” And he says, “When I dig deep, they say, dig deeper.” He’s basically like, I can’t please you people.
But he’s also saying, I’m not trying that hard, because there’s a line where he says, I don’t do psychedelics because I’m scared of unpacking, or whatever. And it’s like, look, I think too much candidly is made of Drake, former child actor, now tough villain, mafioso rap guy. A lot of people who present as tough mafiosos were not tough when they were 14 or 16 or whatever.
Life makes you tough, is that what you’re saying?
I do. I do believe that. Life does make you tough. But I also think there isn’t room. Reflective Drake has always run through the lens of relationships. Female relationships. I’m breaking your heart. You’re breaking my heart. I’m doing devious things which make me think that am I a bad person. You’re doing devious things which makes me wonder if you’re a bad person. Is the very notion of deviousness actually just a false construct? That’s where Drake does his unpacking.
And I know he’s widely reviled at this point. But I do think he’s one of the more astute emotional —
he has a better understanding of the human psyche through the lens of emotions than most rappers and most pop singers and country singers. He’s top tier in that. But that’s different than looking in the mirror and saying, did I lose, did somebody best me at the thing that I ostensibly am the best at.
In a relationship sense, I think Drake talks about losing quite a bit. And I’ve always found that really refreshing. He’s not purely boasting. I think a lot of the critiques of him in that regard are actually really reductive and not right. People say, he’s just out here being a Lothario. And I’m like, actually, most of his better stuff about relationships is about getting dogged out.
No, my overarching theory of Drake has always been that the tension is between I’m shit and I’m the shit. And that’s why, if you’re only hearing one of those sides, oh, Drake’s pathetic, he’s just always being a simp, versus oh, all he talks about is how much money he has and that he never loses, and in fact, the tension is that it’s both at the same time.
But I think, just to come back to this intro of “Make Them Cry,” I think it’s telling that where he lands is on the family stuff. He’s basically like, you want to talk about a battle, I’m nearing 40, dog. Me, too. I’m battling aging. My dad has cancer. I’m battling stages. My uncle’s mad at me. And in fact, if I sat down with him and heard about why, now I’m mature enough to be like, eh, you’re probably right.
So he’s like, in fact, the rap stuff is easy when it comes to facing this life stuff. And if you’re ready for me to dig deep, here we are. Now, the whole album is not that introspective because then he gets in his shit talk mode. What do you make of this next stretch that’s basically goes “Dust,” “Whisper My Name,” “Janice,” “Ran to Atlanta,” “Shabang.” That’s the turn up stretch. Are those songs working for you in that run?
Yes, they are working. But I do not feel the most attached to them. I mean, I don’t necessarily want to skip over them, but —
I won’t let you skip.
I do want to get to “Make Them Pay” really fast. To me, “Make Them Pay,” “Burning Bridges,” “National Treasures —”
That’s the run for you?
— that’s the heart of the record. And it’s bleeding. It’s bloody, mine and yours. Look, Future’s floating. Look, again, team victory, team success. Future sees the vision. Also, of any single person who has beef, or had beef with Drake in the last three years, the one least likely to need anything from Kendrick Lamar is Future.
In the future.
In the future. Yeah, it’s Future.
They had their record, it’s a weird moment.
Future had to Google Kendrick Lamar. He had to literally Google the guy and be like, this guy has songs. There’s no way. He probably just sent Drake text like, bro, I’m sorry, I was in Dubai for six months, I had no idea.
My friend, he don’t have internet.
I’m so sorry. Yeah, literally.
He didn’t know what was going on.
He didn’t know what was going on. Look, I really like the beat switch on “Dust.” I like the weird — is the intro of “Janice STFU,” is the intro a riff on “Hey there, Delilah?”
The Emiliana, it’s been so long —
Yeah, just like the first four bars. I was like, is that “Hey there, Delilah?”
But we need to pause here because I actually think I have two horses that I’d bet on for hit radio singles for the rest of the summer from this album. “Janice,” the hook is a melodic, dare I say lyrical, but especially production masterpiece. Timbaland was already on live talking about how this is a timeless record.
What Drake does by flipping Lykke Li’s “I Follow Rivers” melody, doing the slight voice modulation. So he goes way down, way up, landing on the green tea line. Once again, tying all the way back to the beginning of Drake, to “So Far Gone” where he samples “Little Bit” by Lykke Li. Shoutout to “Blue is the Warmest Color.” One of the great music cues in recent film history using that song
I just feel like that hook is so ingrained already. I felt it watching the live stream. This song was previewed in a different form in some of the earlier “Iceman” live streams. I just think it’s just pop genius. It’s pop genius. And even if it’s not the one right now, I just think people are going to be humming it non-stop.
And also, there are some absolutely savage raps on this record.
That, too.
This is, out of all of the bars, the careful deconstructions of enemies on this album, the one that is the most Kendrick focused, the one that is the most like, I’m going to tell you about yourself. It’s buried in the back half of this record.
And I think that that’s an intentional strategic move, which is to take the other radio record I was referring to, which we’ll get to is “2 Hard 4 The Radio.”
Oh, my gosh.
The one that’s a Mac Dre reference, the one that is a West Coast slapper, the one that is basically being like, oh, GMX, ha-ha, cute, watch me do it. It’s a mustard diss. I think it’s very pointed that he tried to embed some very brutal lines in songs that might get the most play, which again, is what “Not Like Us” was, which was, again, what “Back to Back” was back in the Drake Meek Mill beef.
So yeah, there’s the section you’re referring to. White kids listen to you because they feel some guilt. That’s how your soul gets fulfilled, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Do you think those Kendrick diss lines — is it staircase wit? Is it the jerk store from “Seinfeld?” Is it too little, too late?
You know I don’t watch “Seinfeld.”
You don’t know the jerk store?
No, dog.
Yeah, the jerk store called me, and they’re running out of you. It’s probably the greatest “Seinfeld” episode, in my opinion. It’s about coming up with a comeback too late.
Oh. But by that argument, the whole thing is.
Yeah. Do these lines strike you that way at all, or do you think it’s fair game?
No. I mean, I think, throughout the beef, so much of what was happening between Drake and Kendrick were, I’m going to paint a specific picture of who you are as an individual. One of the things that Drake tried to do during those back and forths was to say, you present as moral, you present as a paragon of political and social virtue.
Holier than thou.
I know some things, or I’m intimating some things that might complicate that picture. There were a lot of allegations. I mean, very strange to think we spent weeks in 2024 waiting for verification of certain details that —
Receipts.
— receipts of one person was saying about the other. There was the guy with the hotel. Yeah. No, no, I don’t want to go there. I’m just saying there was just like — we were so preoccupied with the truth.
— the pills. This was a weird time.
It’s a strange time.
We were all QAnon-ing so hard.
I mean, look at the political climate. I’m sorry.
It’s everything. And we’re still doing it, with this album and all others.
But there was an extra — it was the fever pitch of it was really intense. This is just back to kind of like I know why you’re successful. You’re successful because of white guilt. Who can say, really?
But this is Drake saying, you know what, I’m not going to intimate things about what’s happening in your personal life. I’m not going to talk about what’s happening between you and your family members. I’m just simply going to say, you’re big, here’s why.
It’s blueprint 2. It’s been said. It’s been said. Jay-Z, “Ether” was the “Not Like Us” of its time, maybe. Less of a radio smash.
Those of us who were old enough to live through it.
Yes, kids, look it up. “Ether” was not performed at the Super Bowl, but —
It’s still a meaningful song.
Yes, it did not win record and Song of the Year at the Grammys, but it was a big deal.
Maybe should have.
It was a big deal.
Yeah, of course.
And Jay-Z didn’t stop dissing Nas after he, quote unquote, lost that beef.
No, they’re friends now, though.
That happened much later.
Billionaire buddies. I don’t think Drake and Kendrick are ever going to be billionaire buddies, just for the record.
So yeah, I think it’s funny because I believe that in the catch-22 that Drake has found himself in in terms of public opinion, again, inside the beef and outside of the beef, if he wouldn’t have done this, people would have taken issue with it. He’s doing it —
I think there’s no choice but to do it.
— people are going to take issue with it.
No choice but to do it.
There’s no choice but to do it. It comes in the next couple songs to titling the future song, “Ran to Atlanta,” a reference to the third verse of “Not Like Us,” which I think that verse has aged the poorest, other than —
Which one? Sorry.
The Atlanta verse of “Not Like Us.”
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
— as always felt a bit forced.
We’re scraping the barrel with that. Yeah.
I’ll leave aside. Maybe it hasn’t aged worse than calling someone a pedophile if they’re not a pedophile. That’s tough. I can’t litigate that right now. But I do think Drake, running back to Atlanta and then using the Migos ad libs on “Shabang,” the very next song, he’s like, I’m not going to stop running to the guy.
No. He even says, he’s like, they knew my run. In “Run to Atlanta,” they knew my run in Atlanta. You can’t take that away from me. I mean, I drove past the apartment building and wherever that neighborhood is where he used to live. I’ve driven past. He talked about it. I know the parking lot with the Hooters waitress and the whole thing. It’s all there. You can’t undo someone’s history just because you said a line in a song.
Anyway, I’m interested more in what happens on “Make Them Pay.” I have some big picture thoughts about “Make Them Pay.” I might be speaking of humanizing the whole thing. There are things that are happening in this song that strike me as peculiar on top of just being like a really good diss record.
Obviously, he’s got bars for DJ Khaled here, he’s got bars for Rick Ross here. He’s talking about the big three. He says, too many chefs in the kitchen, it was a mess to begin with. Very casual off topic. Sorry to Cole who apparently just should have not done whatever it is he did. There’s a lot of tossed off lines here.
I’m interested in the sample. It says Denise Williams’s “Free.” I’m definitely showing my age here. But “Free” by Denise Williams sampling in a bunch of rap records in the ‘90s. KD’s “Freshest MC in the World.” It’s a sleeper West Coast classic in my mind. Also, “Shit’s Real” by Mike Geronimo. It’s on Akinyele Record. It’s very redolent of a specific hyper lyrical moment in rap music.
To me, it’s taking this kind of foundational piece in saying, I can make this sort of record. On a structural level, I can make this sort of record too. And I can also use it and weaponize it against everybody who’s coming for me.
It’s funny. I don’t know if it’s the best produced song on “Iceman,” but I feel like it might be the smartest produced song on “Iceman.” You don’t hear Drake often — a lot of sample Drake is it’s clever, it’s unusual, he’s recontextualizing something in a slightly left field way. This is maybe the most literal guy raps over sample over beat on any Drake record, certainly any recent Drake record. But I think it’s pointed. And maybe this is just coming from a guy who played “The Freshest MC in the World” on his college radio show. a whole lot in 1994, 1995. But if anybody knows that, I’m pretty sure Drake knows that.
The two big thesis statements that I took from this song were first, where he says, maybe I’m best as the villain. And I think it’s crucial that he —
I wonder that sometimes myself.
I think it’s important that he phrases it that way, because then later, almost at the end of the album, he says, in fact, I’m neither the villain nor the victim. I’m the author of my own story, whatever, whatever. He’s basically toying with this idea. And I think it’s important that he lands on it’s not quite that, even though he’s been gesturing towards villain hood for so long now, and has been essentially forced into that role by the level of humiliation that came with the success of “Not Like Us.”
Do you think if we stopped talking two to three years from now, we would still be just — no, no, what I’m saying, would we still be dissing each other? I’m just saying, DJ Khaled —
There are podcasters who have been dissing each other for many years who used to work together. I can think of a couple.
I don’t think it’ll never happen to us. But I’m just like, it’s just so funny that he’s just been sitting on this DJ Khaled line for two years. You know what I mean? DJ Khaled, very famously, of Palestinian origin, will not speak about what’s happening in Gaza or what’s happening in the last two years in the Middle East. And Drake is just like, while we’re here, while I’m just cleaning out, emptying out my pockets —
Very interesting to me that on this album, Drake does a very quick allusion to the fact that there’s some anti-Semitism behind the distaste for him, and also a quick in passing free Palestine, but putting it not in his own mouth, but why aren’t you saying free Palestine. Though he also famously was very early in signing a ceasefire list. The biggest celebrity who did so, has made some pro-palestine allusions in the past. This is a big thing for 40, going back to 40. So interesting the way that he sort of ends around politics, as he’s always done —
He makes a statement without making it, again, like you said, through his own mouth.
And then the last thing from this song, “I’m better off independent. They should let him leave,” which, again, is not saying, I am now independent. It’s saying let me be free.
Right. And I just think — can I just repeat the Aidan Ross line? I was Aidan Ross with streams before Aidan Ross had ever streamed. Bro. I’m sorry. Can I just enjoy wordplay as a middle aged rap fan?
This album’s for you.
It really is. And it’s also for a bunch of people who have discounted Drake over the years. I mean, I kept coming back to this. And if I write something about this week, it’s probably going to be what I write about. But it’s like the writerly-ness of Drake is so strong. I mean, this is a person who truly cares about shapes of lines, the complexity of internal rhyme schemes.
I mean, this is like a classic backpack ‘90s dude. This is like a wet dream for a backpack rap ‘90s dude if only they would listen to Drake. There’s also an example, not to skip ahead, but the example on “Make Them Remember.” I mean, can I just read this?
Go ahead.
Newest rules, fooling fools, who’s booing who, toodaloo, Google news, flew the coop, through the roof, whoopty woo, hula hoops, Jewish roots, do the Dew, whoopty-doo, Looney over Tunes. What the hell? Come on, man.
That’s Cam’ron.
It’s Cam’ron, it’s LP. You know what I mean? It’s everybody who was making great rap music between 1996 and 2001. It’s practically freestyle fellowship, which then goes back to LA. But this is nobody else. Name me one rapper who is on rap caviar right now.
I was just going to point to Earl Sweatshirt.
Earl Sweatshirt. Who’s on rap caviar right now who can do this. And then if they could, is inclined to and actually would put it on what’s going to be the number one album in the country. Obviously, you know Earl clock this. Earl, if you see this, I know you clock this. And I know you know Drake’s great rapper. That’s not an argument.
Sorry, no one else is doing that. “Burning Bridges.”
I want to get to the other albums. I want to get to some questions.
Where are we now?
We’re so far deep into “Iceman.”
OK, can I —
But we got a lot. We got a couple things I want to breeze through these.
Speed round.
“Burning Bridges.”
Kodak flow.
Two Kodak flows. “Little Birdie” is the real —
“Little Birdie” is the real Kodak flow. But this one, when I heard this, I was — I don’t want to get up and dance because we don’t have enough time for me to do a full interpretive dance to this Kodak flow. But this Kodak flow is — it’s so dyspeptic. It’s crazy. Oh, my God. It’s collapsing in real time. It’s like forceful in the bottom. It’s like when you see those old cartoons where someone’s running, and the cliff is falling behind them. And you think, oh, no, they’re going to collapse down the cliff. And they’re just racing and racing and racing. It’s doing both at the same time. It’s unbelievable.
Drake, once again, to come back to my macro point, reminding you that he made back to back interpolating his own diss song. This is something that I thought, while watching the live stream in real time, and has since become a bit of a chorus among fans, and especially on my feed because I keep favoriting the tweets that say this, they need to put the live version on DSPs with the restaurant ambient noise. I hit the mic. That’s how excited I am about this. The gang vocals, the glasses clinking, it’s such an inspired production choice that’s not an actual production choice. It’s in the music video version. But I think if you put that version on DSPs, I bet it outstreams the recorded version.
“Little Birdie,” that’s the other Kodak homage. DJ Frisco 954, that’s a Florida producer making fast music. Drake once again showing that he’s very tapped in to what’s happening in regional scenes, especially in the South.
These are just really fun records.
And also, to your point about “2 hard 4 the Radio” being sort of an LA record, the other thing —
It’s a Bay.
Sorry. Yeah, my bad. Bay Record. The other thing about it, the first thing I wrote down is Uptown Records ass flo. It’s a real ‘91 flo. It’s a real ‘90 flo. And that reminds me of what was on Twitter recently, which is one of the songs is a national treasures over the Will Smith beat, over the Fresh Prince beat.
No, it’s “2 Hard 4 the Radio.”
Oh, it’s literally is. Sorry. Sorry. So someone heard it. My bad. I’ve been absorbing a lot of information. Forgive me. Yeah, real uptown. Real hard on the four. Real slap flo.
And a direct interpret interpolation of Mac Dre’s “2 Hard for Radio.” Yes. Lots going on with the pop rap on the back half of this album. But then it’s interspersed with the deep stuff. I just want to —
Dipping you boys like a christening?
I just want to shout out real quick the beat switch on “National Treasures,” the second half, with the video, with the strobe light. He’s doing what may or may not be the “Rich Spirit” dance and comparing himself to a squid.
Pushing out ink, I feel like a squid. I would really need a YouTube search just to do a laundry load. Same, twin. Alex Moss, trying to bring me back 100 years from now. How he got my body fro. Bro.
But that, one of the best beats on the album. A lot of beat switches here, I think an exhausting amount to some people. But they work for me. But then, yes, you get “Make Them Remember,” you get “Firm Friends,” you get “Make Them Know.” These are the introspective tracks sort of cut with the rap tracks.
Plot twist, another sort of gangster rap record, that had leaked before, a fan favorite makes its way on here. Anyway, anything else you want to say about the second —
No, I want to get to — we got to get to “Maid of Honour.” And then we got to take questions. “Maid of Honour,” “Hoe Phase,” “Road Trips” could be radio hits. They’re both absolute slaps. “Hoe Phase,” sort of a ballroom house record. What?
Lots of tweets about circuit parties and what this album might mean in that context.
So the run right at the top of “Maid of Honour,” “Hoe Phase,” “Road Trips,” “Outside Tweaking,” Middle Eastern drill record? I have no idea what’s going on here. “Cheetah Print,” with Sexyy Red. First thing, can I get consent? Drake hearing the —
We got an eye roll from producer Kate. Drake getting an eye roll or John getting an eye roll?
Both. Thank you, Kate. I’m just simply reporting here. “Maid of Honour —”
But then she literally does the cha-cha slide, Sexxy Red on the bridge there. Just all over the place.
I feel like one of the things I admire so much about Drake as a stylist is he doesn’t have a fixed idea of flow or presentation that, when it encounters a novel production choice, cannot bend to that production choice. If anything, I think it’s that he hears an unusual production choice and says, OK, I’ve got my bag of tricks. I have no idea, the flow at the beginning of “Outside Tweaking,” that kind of like — [VOCALIZING] where’d that come from? It’s not consistent with any prior Drake record that I could think of. It’s really, really striking.
Then on the back end of this record, you have “Stuck,” which sounds like a Ralph Tresvant song combined with a Fifth Ward Weebee record. Very bizarre.
Lots of production on this.
Sorry, it’s fifth World Weebee, but it’s a Ninth Ward shoutout. Sorry, my bad.
Lots and lots of production.
Oh, my gosh.
I think Gordo’s all over here, according to his tweets. Formerly known as DJ Carnage. Oz is here a lot. A long time, now at this point, a frequent collaborator of Drake’s. A bunch of people I’ve never heard of, allegedly. I do like it’s like —
Well, it’s how I felt about “Nokia,” because when “Nokia —” I forget the name of the producer on “Nokia.” It’ll come to me in a sec. But I had to go Google that person and be like, oh, here’s a genius I’ve never heard before.
Yeah, that’s with — I want to pull that up while we’re here. Elkan.
Elkan. Yeah, yeah. For sure.
Really, “True Bestie,” Iconic Savvy, another one that struck me.
“Goose and the Juice,” Electro Record. Again, it’s like who’s — “Goose and the Juice” is of a piece with “Nokia” to me. It’s like, what contemporary rapper is like, you know who I should remind people of, is Newcleus? No one. Literally not a person, except Drake.
I really think this is the album that is ripe for a super deep dive from a crate digger, to draw all of the parallels back to the ‘70s and ‘80s and early ‘90s rap that Drake is nerding out on here with his friends.
Yeah, I know I’m old. But it’s like there were unusual and non fully resolved production inputs in rap music from 1979 to 1989, let’s say, where there was a sense of we found a strange beat on a record, and it hits in an unusual way, and then we’ll build something around that. Obviously, post NWA into Dr. Dre, post Bad Boy peak, those things get harmonized and smoothed out. And there’s this conventional framework.
Radio becomes a big thing and people know how to make a rap radio hit, and then people start organizing themselves around that. And then the weirdness kind of gets relegated to the underground. But for the first 10 years, there’s a lot of weirdness happening in plain sight that probably wasn’t that weird in the moment. But looking back on it, you’re like, I didn’t remember that rap record sounded like that. Here’s a person who remembers.
All right, we got to talk about “Princess,” which I think will lead us into “Habibti.” Princess is — I’m waiting on the credits on this. I’ve asked all my sources. Please let me know who’s playing this guitar. Is this a sample? What is this sound? You’ve already seen the memes of Drake with his “Hot Topic” hair. This was how Drake was feeling when he made “Princess.” It’s industrial, it’s goth, it’s emo,
It’s XXXTentacion song?
You said it.
But it kind of is. It’s a peep song. It’s a 2017 SoundCloud rap song. It’s very strange.
Very strange.
I love it. It’s great. I almost don’t want to talk too much about it because I don’t want to overindex on its weirdness.
But I want to know where it came from. I really need a full break — what was going on, in which studio? This doesn’t feel like it was recorded in Turks or in the Bahamas. Was this in Toronto’s City Hall, “National Treasures,” where he’s wearing the mayor’s honorary —
Very strange. Does the times have one of those? Is there one up on one of — yeah, like on the higher floors — can we record with one of those?
No, we need an oral history of the “Princess” sessions, which leads us to the opening track on “Habibti.” We mentioned it earlier is another DJ Frisco 954, the “Rusty Intro.”
Yeah, those are of a piece. It’s strange those two songs sidebar — or those two songs side by side in my notes makes me wonder if it’s actually — if “Maid of Honour” and “Habibti” was maybe one album, and this was the weird middle point, and then he split it. Just a thought.
“Rusty Intro” is Drake over —
Country music?
No, that’s emo, my friend.
Country. Country emo?
You got Zach Brian on the brain.
Sorry. Always.
Zach Brian, let us know what you think of this Drake album. Or all these Drake albums. I think Zach Brian “Rusty Intro” remix?
I’m ready, I’m ready. If someone who can make that happen is listening, we see you.
So it’s an acoustic guitar ballad in the first half, and then it’s only a minute and 2 seconds long. But then at the 42nd mark, DJ Frisco does his thing and speeds it up. Is this a rap song? No. It is in dialogue with things that are happening in Southern rap, but brought into a totally different sphere. My only quibble with it is that it sets up something that this album is not.
It’s definitely an outlier. And again, much with the first song on “Iceman,” it has kind of less song energy. Again, I don’t about the track arrangement. I don’t exactly why this is first because I agree, it doesn’t have a lot to do with what comes after it. It feels a little bit thematically afterthought to me.
And then there’s this run, “WNBA,” “Slap the City,” “High Fives,” “Hurrr Nor Thurrr.”
“Hurr Nor Thurrr.”
Another Sexxy Red one, the Low Shimmy Record, “I’m Spent.” They all have their moments. But these feel the most Drake that we’ve known since “Iceman.”
If this is not the kind of overflow album, it’s the R&B, it’s the I put a bunch of women songs here, it’s the I broke your heart, you broke my heart record. “WNBA,” you’re always on the road, how can we possibly form a real connection if you’re always on the road.
There’s an incredible line on “Slap the City” with a singer I’d never heard of called Qendresa, who’s Albanian. Shout out Albanians!
So we’ll see what you do this week.
Yeah. And “Slap the City,” he says, most girls in the city will come to my house and they know where the bathroom is.
I’m sorry. Look, Marvin’s room, for all time, for all time, dare I say, that’s darker than anything on Marvin’s room.
You think of it as more dark than —
I mean, it’s obviously framed as a flex. But it is not a flex.
It’s too real.
Yes, it’s distressing is what it is.
I do think the back half —
Also, there’s probably multiple bathrooms, I would assume.
Oh, yeah. [OVERLAPPING SPEECH]
Even I have two bathrooms.
I don’t even want to know how many bathrooms are at the embassy. I do want to talk about the back half of this album because —
— which kind of really gets — yeah.
“Classic” is like pure, pure, pure R&B Drake. Not PARTYNEXTDOOR R&B Drake, but “Fire & Desire” R&B Drake, which I think I enjoy him in that mode. And then “Gen 5” and “White Bone” are a bit more spacious. They remind me of what he was doing on “Days in the East” back in the day, where he was really using song structure like “Taffy,” just pulling it out, pulling it out, pulling it out, seeing how far he could unfurl stuff.
This is also, “White Bone” to me is probably the saddest song. There are these sad moments obviously about did I lose the beef, am I still on top, where are my friends, women let me down. But him delivering this series of raps, imagining a kind of picket fence life with a person. And it’s like he’s only rapping in the plane of the imaginary. He’s not rapping in the plane of the literal. He’s purely rapping the plane of the imaginary. I don’t know. I felt like that had quiet devastation to it.
Before we move to these questions, I just want to quote “Fortworth,” which is a throwback remember —
It’s like a Young Money. It’s a Young Money on the road fun time record. Yeah.
But the rhyme, New Haven, Connecticut and places where they probably still fly the Confederate. It’s like, poor New Haven, I feel like just catching a stray. Just in terms of proximity there.
They wouldn’t fly the Confederate flag.
Of course.
But they wear vineyard vines.
Shout out to La Quinta Inn. Circle K gets a line here. I might walk to Circle K by myself. I’ve done that many times in Orlando, Florida, walk to Circle K by myself.
I will say, “Prioritizing,” which closes this album, does have completing the Triptych energy. It is a last song that earns its last song place. There’s the quatrain, time for some prioritizing, time to open both those eyelids, all these strings are paralyzing, life right now is terrifying.
And maybe for someone who’s not going to do ayahuasca to plumb the depths of his internal terrors, this might be the most vulnerability you’re going to get in this particular setup.
It really stuck with him that Kendrick said he should do psychedelics. He mentions not wanting to do psychedelics because he doesn’t want to unpack at the beginning of “Iceman.” And then at the end of “Iceman,” he says, why are you telling me to take DMT.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What’s the thing? DSP, DMT, KYS ASAP.
All right, let’s take some questions.
I don’t ever want to hear people say Drake can’t rap. I’m sorry. It’s 2026. Find a new hobby horse.
More people are saying it than ever.
It’s ridiculous. It’s so far from the truth. As this is a joke that no one will get but me and one particular person might be listening.
Only this one?
Yes, that is non-factual information. And if you know what that reference is, you’re a real one.
All right. People are generally asking in these comments about Drake not taking accountability on this album and how has it behavior impacts enjoyment of his work. A question straight up — is Drake a misogynist, do things like that immoral behavior or perspective you disagree with impact your personal enjoyment of an artist’s work. He does allude to Tory Lanez again here, which is something that I think people have really been annoyed by his persistent support of Tory Lanez, who was convicted of shooting Megan Thee Stallion.
Somebody said there’s 0 accountability on this album on Drake’s part. Talk about that.
Do you think, A, that’s true and, B, that he owes an audience personal accountability?
I don’t think that any artist can choose to make the form — I think, no. The answer is no. I don’t think accountability is owed. But I think by making a choice to not center accountability, Drake is essentially saying to that category of fan, the casuals, as he refers to somewhere on one of these albums, if that’s going to be the thing that gets you out of the room, I can live with you being out of the room.
That’s part of villain era Drake. Villain era Drake is not simply I have something to say about Kendrick Lamar. It’s not simply saying, hey Rocky, how come Rihanna didn’t post your single. It’s also being like, I’m the guy. And if you can’t handle what being the guy — if you don’t want access to that, walk right on out. Tory Lanez convicted of shooting Megan Thee Stallion. That’s not great. I wouldn’t put my moral weight behind that, personally. But yeah, I don’t think it’s owed.
I’ve long been fascinated by the idea that Drake is held to a different moral standard than most rappers. And why that may be, I think on the one hand, he invokes it himself. It’s the pale skin, the Jewish roots. I think it also, on the flip side, goes to the fact that he is so prominent. And people feel like they know so much about him, they’ve grown up with him. He’s been vulnerable at times. He’s changed the conversation sometimes around women in rap.
So I think it stings extra hard for people who feel an emotional and personal investment in him when they think he is wronging them or going astray morally. But I think that this, to me, will be the question about Drake long after he’s gone, which is why, even next to many of his — I think of “Her Loss.” I think I probably said it at the time. It’s like, there are way more questions for Drake than there were for 21 Savage.
Yeah, of course.
And why is that?
Also, if you go back to the kind of crux of Kendrick versus Drake, it’s rap as moral house versus rap as immoral house. And I don’t mean literally about the subject matter of what rap is. It’s about what are the politics and ethical, what are the range of acceptable stances. And it’s interesting because so much of what Drake was proffering about Kendrick was you pretend to be morally unimpeachable, but actually your behavior suggests that you’re not.
Drake, perversely, for someone who is basically one of the five most famous people on the planet, 10 most famous people, certainly in music on the planet, has accepted that you guys aren’t going to think I’m the good guy even if I actually am, which TBD. I mean, who knows. But I think he’s accepted that, and he’s leaning into that more than ever.
He’s saying, I know who I am, and the people that I love and care about know who I am. But just to go take it back to the beef, as you were just doing, it’s true that what Kendrick was saying, what Kendrick was leaning on him for is you are a bad person. He literally says, I think people like you should die to keep other people safe. He says to his mother, his father, and his children, this is a bad person and he’s dragging you down.
Right, he’s done wrong —
His soul is poisoning everybody around him.
Literally cancerous.
He says, you should pray more. He says, you should teach your son to pray. That is the argument that ultimately won Kendrick the battle. And I think, again, it comes back to this idea that people want something. They get it out of Kendrick Lamar. They feel like they get it out of Kendrick Lamar, which is somebody to look up to, a savior figure in music.
But does rap need to be moral?
That I don’t know. I mean, most of the rap that succeeds and that people listen to does not follow those —
Tenets, guidelines.
Yeah. So again, I think it’s a whole podcast. It’s a whole mini series. It’s a whole series of books. Someone could write the power broker, I think, about Drake’s morality. And hopefully someday, they will. Quick question here —
When are we going to get around it? We have so much to do.
Who had the best feature across all three?
It’s a good question.
It is a good question.
I am going to say —
Sexxy Red doing the cha-cha slide?
I’m going to say Stunna Sandy.
Stunna Sandy.
Stunna Sandy.
We could be outside tweaking.
It’s a great record. Wasn’t fully familiar with the oeuvre of Stunna Sandy prior to this. But we’re dialing in.
Where do we think Drake and Cole stand, someone asks.
I’m sure Drake knows in his heart that Cole wasn’t built for it. And he knew that long before. He knew that before.
He calls him the married rapper at one point.
Nothing wrong with committed love.
It sounds more like disappointment than anger to me.
Yeah, I mean, I’m sure it was anger at some point. But it’s like, if — I don’t think Drake ever mistook Cole for, I mean, euphemistically, a shooter. That’s not what Drake thinks Cole is. And then Cole, turned out, was not that. And I don’t think that that shocks Drake necessarily. But I think they were close. I think that they cared for each other.
I think they were close. And I think Drake really been out in the wild. Look, you can say that he picked these people to be the features. There’s a lot of young artists features, young producers. You can say he did it to prove that he still has the A&R here. You can say he did it because nobody from the old team would mess with him.
Or he wouldn’t mess with them.
He wouldn’t mess with them. But —
Nicki Minaj on this album. There is a line about one of his friends playing Nicki and Cardi back to back, which he apologizes for. To the Cole point, I mean, he says it outright. I’m going to just read the lyrics. On “Make Them Pay,” he says, “You run and talk to hoe for a second opinion. I accepted the mission. I’d much rather death than submission. How can you press the ignition and let memories of the past affect your decision.” And then he says, “I love you because of the history, but I could never forgive you. You never called me back. Destiny’s written. No more big three.”
People really just — return people’s phone calls.
It’s a good lesson.
Return people’s phone calls.
Here’s what I would say — Drake and Cole, in their old age —
They’ll be fine.
— I think they could shake hands someday.
I agree.
Drake and Kendrick, I’m not counting on it.
No, no, no, of course.
Let’s just hit a couple more questions before we go.
Sophie said we can have 10 more minutes.
Oh, I saw. We got 10 more minutes, guys. Hit us with some additional questions if you have them. Someone asked, can we discuss the Stake shilling within the music. That was the weakest element of the whole release. Gambling promo. Gambling promo is so beneath Drake, yet he refuses to stop. I didn’t catch a bunch of that on here.
I also didn’t. But maybe I need to listen more closely. I mean, I think —
In general, there’s been some great reporting about Stake in “The New York Times” and other places, these online casinos. It’s out of my depth. I haven’t done any reporting about that relationship.
No, I think the bigger —
Go check that stuff out.
Yeah, I’m happy to dive in more. I don’t know the answer right now. But what I will say is Drake, in the last two or three years, has found his closest alliances in the universe of live streaming, particularly the folks who are not maybe on the edge, the kind of like —
Manosphere adjacent.
Manosphere adjacent. He’s not out here with the Tate brothers.
Shane Gillis is in the video.
Yeah. But there’s a lot of intersection between the gambling industry, the live streaming industry, and a set of very high profile live streamers. I’ve watched Drake play online poker, I guess, with a bunch of people famous. Yeah.
Roulette.
This is the other thing. It’s like there’s plenty of money in streaming. There’s plenty of money in live shows. But right now, all the new money is in that. And Drake, more than any other rapper or any other pop star, has been proximate to those people.
He’s interested in emerging mediums.
Who can relate?
I see Cada eyeing the snack table, if you want to toss us a snack. I’m feeling sweet. If you could give us something sweet while we take these last couple questions. This is a question. Drake mentioned fighting his way back on the charts are songs like “Princess” or “Rusty Intro” his way back. I like the idea that those songs could be hits.
Oh, I see what you got. Throw it. I got it. Oh, yeah. All right, we’re going to get to these. I like the idea. I like where your mind is at, the idea that those could be big hits. I think the songs most likely to be Drake hits are the songs that sound like Drake hits. I think “2 Hard 4 the Radio —”
He’s not gonna have a novel —
“The Motto” is a Drake hit. This song is an update of “The Motto.” “Janice,” again, a little twist on what Drake does, but I think the hits are more likely to be in the mode of Drake songs we’ve already heard than in totally new modes, which is why something like “Die Trying” from “Some Sexy Songs 4 U” never quite took off, even though it feels like a pop song to me. What do you think?
Yeah. I mean, I think the notion that Drake is going to fight to get chart hits is also a little bit weird, because I feel like right at the beginning of this conversation, I should have just said how refreshing it was to hear 40 new mostly very good Drake songs and how, at least for me personally, how little my appetite for that kind of thing has diminished.
And also, if we’re really thinking macro, we’re going to check them. Who are the rap stars? We talk about this all the time. You look at rap caviar. You listen to Hot 97 or Power 106 or whatever. It’s like, who are the rap stars, who are the people who are consistently on radio.
You listen to Hot 97. I’m hearing Dababy and Zeddy Will every 30 minutes. And nothing against that song or those two rappers. I like that song and I like those rappers, but there has not been another big 3. There has not been class turnover. And so maybe Drake is banking on the sense that it’s actually kind of a barren tundra out there, and people might be really excited to hear some classic Drake hits.
It’s funny. I think you’re totally right. The thing that’s going to determine what Drake does next, or the people that are going to determine what Drake does next, are probably not young rappers challenging him. It’s Kendrick Lamar and it’s Jay-Z. If Jay-Z puts out a new album this year or a one off track where he wants to diss Drake, that’s going to be the next 6, 8, 12, 18 months of the Drake narrative.
Same thing, is Kendrick coming up out of his cave because of this album. We’ll see.
Would you take the dinner or 500k?
I’m raising capital right now.
All right. Every episode of “Popcast” ends with a snack. This is going to go with our last question? I bought these at Wawa recently. These are twisted. These are —
I saw those. They’re so bizarre.
— peanut butter cinnamon roll M&Ms.
What are you people doing? What are people eating out there?
And this goes with —
The idea that this made it all the way up the chain of command. This didn’t get X’ed out —
All the way to my pocket.
All the way. This, to me, in the first meeting is like, hey, guys, that’s pretty wacky.
I’ve never heard cinnamon roll in peanut butter in the same sentence.
Literally never. Never.
Is that something you people do, slathering peanut butter on your cinnamon roll?
Sprinkling cinnamon onto your peanut butter?
Wow.
Oh, jeez. Incorrigible.
So this goes with a question from long time “Popcast” listener, Tumblr era, friend of the pod, Justin W, who asks if one of these albums was a snack, what would it be. So we’re going to think about that as we try these peanut butter cinnamon roll M&Ms. And then we’re going to let you get on with your Sunday evening.
If you’re new to “Popcast,” like and subscribe. Our show is coming back bigger and better than ever starting next week. We’re going to be streaming —
May 28.
Yeah, May 28. Is that next week? Yeah, Sunday. It’s the following week.
Depends what you believe the beginning of a week is.
We got a lot in store for you all. Like and subscribe. TikTok, Instagram, Popcast.
It’s going to be a hot summer.
It’s going to be a hot summer. What do these taste like and what Drake album — OK, top of my head, “Iceman” is a Klondike bar. Reliable.
— snack name for each of the three albums?
No, no. If one of these albums was a snack, what would it be? “Iceman” Klondike bar, too on the nose?
Very on the nose.
Sophie thought it was funny. Thanks, Sophie.
It just tastes like a peanut butter M&M. I don’t get the cinnamon, really.
Oh, are you kidding? I taste so intensely.
It’s at the end.
Oh, my God, it’s so much.
Yeah, it’s a little subtle, no?
Not to me. It’s like, obviously the peanut butter — you’re getting all the Peanut butter in the texture and a touch of the flavor. And then the cinnamon comes and just knocks right on.
These are “Maid of Honour” M&Ms.
I feel like “Maid of Honour” is — it’s like a pack of OG Starburst pack.
That down the middle?
Loud vibrant colors, a bunch of things that are extremely intense in flavor, that are correlated flavors, but they’re not one of the same flavor. I think there’s five or six different flavors on it that all are —
They’re more like sour Starbursts to me. You know sour Starbursts? You’ve never had a sour Starburst.
I’ve had it. I just don’t choose it.
These are good. They’re mild.
I don’t need cinnamon.
The reason I compare it to “Maid of Honour” is they’re flavors that I didn’t know wanted to pair.
These are more mid than that album, though.
Yeah, yeah. These are a 7.
That’s higher than I thought. I think these are like 4 and 1/2.
What?
[OVERLAPPING SPEECH]
But they’re aspiring to a lot.
They’re still a peanut butter M&M.
They’re aspiring to a lot.
They’re still a peanut butter M&M. I don’t even want the cinnamon. But it’s still a Peanut butter M&M. Jeez. That’s our show?
A peanut butter M&M on its own is like a 9 and 1/2. But adding the cinnamon and thinking you’re doing something is disappointing.
Can you put us on to other recipes that combine peanut butter? If anybody from cooking is watching, is this the thing you guys get on all the time?
Popcast@nytimes.com. Email us your peanut butter and cinnamon recipes. Maybe one of the friends of the show could make a cookie along those lines. I know we got some bakers.
I have someone in mind. Yeah. That’s our show. YouTube Livestream. Drake “Iceman” reactions. We are done. Every episode of “Popcast” is at nytimes.com/popcast. We’re on YouTube probably an uncomfortable amount, frankly.
Coming up.
Coming up. You’re going to be so much of us on YouTube at youtube.com/popcast. We’re on Instagram and TikTok @Popcast. It’s Jon and Joe. We’ll be back next week.